Making History in the Triangle
I really think history was made last night at the Convergent Conference at SEBTS in Wake Forest.
Miranda and I had an opportunity, by the graciousness of Acts 29 , to listen to Mark Driscoll teach (what we thought, anyway) about culture and theology. Turns out the Spirit had other plans. In true Lutheran fashion, Driscoll stood up and for an hour and a little more, called out heretics by name. Usually, it’s against my nature to call names and really just speak to the “issues”, which is what Mark had done up until last night. It seems as if the influence of the guys mentioned is simply too great to ignore them as individuals. The guys Driscoll pointed out as teaching false doctrine were Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, and Rob Bell. The first two were gimmes. But for a long time, people have lumped Rob Bell in with guys like Jon Burke and Erwin McManus because of style and creativity. It is simply not true. The theology of Bell is completely off base, and Driscoll really dissected it all last night, likening them to the Ebionites of the early church, and to modern-day paganists. [By the way, I called this out a long time ago here: What is Salvation?]Is this sensationalist? Nope. It’s a necessary outworking of the duty of a Christian outlined in Jude 3: to articulate the Gospel and to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. Mark did just that, and I think it will be remembered for quite some time by Bible-thumping, Jesus loving Christians.
19 Comments
I was there and was really mixed about Driscolls talk. I thought that it was excellent and necessary given that more mainline denominations are looking up to these emerging churches for bringing droves of people in. But on the other hand, Mark mentioned that he had never met Bell, but proceeded to throw him under the bus publicly. Now dont get me wrong, I agree wholeheartedly with Marks assessment of all three guys, I even listened to a message from Bells church on the way home where the speaker described the kingdom of heaven being like a dinner table with jews, muslims, christians, and atheists…huh!?
I dont know the behind the scenes of it all, but I am just concerned that Mark didnt confront Bell first before publicly denouncing him as a pagan.
I hate that I missed you, Derek…was there as well.
@Travis: Man, that sucks. I had my lovely lady with me, and we could’ve ate dinner or something. Next time you’re headed up here, give me a shout-out.
@Brett: I know that just on the face of it all it seems as if Mark was ‘throwing Rob under the bus’ without meeting him, but we have to ask ourselves this: is it necessary to withhold truth due to courtesy? In this case, especially, when someone who has so much influence is outside of the Gospel, I think it necessary to at least confront the ideas. I also think Mark confronted the ideas and not the people, as evidenced by his preface about the character of each of the men addressed. I believe that Mark handled the task at hand with much (to my surprise, considering past remarks from the Seattle pastor) grace and love for not only the Truth of Scripture, but for the men who genuinely love Jesus, but are astray in doctrine. Thanks for the comment!
Derek,
I completely disagree with Driscoll’s thoughts on Bell, and McLaren. I don’t really know Pagitt’s beliefs all that well, but do think he’s probably ok. However, I will say that I understand your concerns.
My main point is that I am having a hard time reading your blog. It is getting all mushed together and overlapping. I am currently on a smaller monitor, but it is something you might want to check out.
@Miracle: At the risk of being ungracious, I urge you to reconsider your thoughts about Bell, McLaren, and Pagitt. Having read their stuff on my own, and having concerns about each of them long before Driscoll called them out, I understand that what they say may appeal to everyone. But the truth is this: they disrespect the Cross in the name of tolerance and “nice” Christianity. Just dig deeper into Scripture, and I will pray for your endeavors as well.
As to the display problem, it is most likely your monitor’s resolution. The blog is designed for 800×600 if not greater. If this is not the case, it is indeed your monitor’s size. I’m sorry. If you use blog-reading software (bloglines, myYahoo!, etc.), you can subscribe by clicking the big orange block at the top of the site. Thanks, and God bless!
Wow, I’ve been waiting a while to hear Mark publicly call Bell out. Bell is just so slippery, subtle, and subversive, which explains not only why so few will risk calling him on it, but also why he is so easily welcomed by the undiscerning.
I find it especially telling that Bell behaves more like a rock star, on tour promoting his “products” like his books and Nooma heresies, drinking in the applause at speaking engagements, than like a pastor who should be at home tending to his flock.
Does anybody know if/where there is audio of this event?
If the claims of Driscoll about the teachings of these men are true, then it is not just some panel discussion on “What did you think?”. Eevery believer in pssession of such information must act upon it before the Lord. These are dangerous days….
http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2007/09/claims-of-mark-driscoll-o-n-friday.html
Hey, I just checked out your site on my home monitor which runs 1027 x 768 resolution and an average size monitor and still see the mush. It looks like you have the main area of your design in an absolute position and your side in a relative. Do you use wordpress or some other blogging software? Oh, I’ve added you to my bloglines.
@Peter
Are you saying that Bell is wrong for preaching across the country in speaking tours? Do you not listen to any well spoken preachers who decide to take their gifts to the larger public? I can see where speaking can become like a rock star event, but I don’t think every popular preacher is a self-absorbed premadonna. We must not judge him simply because he goes out to speak, because this can be a good thing. If God gave him a gift, then he needs to share it as much as possible. There is a chance that Rob Bell could abuse the gift, but I haven’t seen nor heard anything that would make me think that he is.
@Miracle: I figured out the problem. You’re using Internet Explorer. I designed the site for Firefox. Whoops. Need to fix that I guess….
@Miracle and Peter: I also agree with Miracle on this point. It’s not that he speaks around the country that’s the problem, it’s what he speaks around the country. After all, Driscoll was in Raleigh, NC at a conference when he called out the Triangle Three. The method is not the problem: it’s the message. When the Gospel is left behind for “rabbinical authority” and pagan tolerance, that’s when heresy arises.
I’ve written this elsewhere…thought I’d chime in here since there is some concern over the approprirateness of Mark calling out Rob Bell without having discussed it with him first. Some seem to be under the understanding that Mark Driscoll should have followed Matthew 18 for addressing Rob. Since, Rob, Doug, and Brian have not sinned against Mark and have instead sinned against the integrity of Jesus and the Scriptures, Titus 1:10-14 is germane.
“10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. 12One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.” (Titus 1:10-14; NASB)
I appreciate your post. It is good that Mark has decided to distance himself from these guys. Bell’s theology has made many uncomfortable for a while.
I wonder why Driscoll didn’t call out Erwin McManus? Could it be because of McManus and his status as SBC’s poster boy?
I personally believe Erwin McManus to be doctrinally sound, as far as I’ve heard, anyway. I’ve had the opportunity to hear him speak on two occasions, both of which were Gospel-centered and prima Scriptura, with respect to Christ. The only thing about McManus is that his methods are “out there”, but so is his city. A sound message with relevant methods = a good minister. This is why I think Driscoll didn’t call him out. Jon Burke is the same way.
why not teach the truth and not respond to other’s teachngs? Mark should confront Rob, because that would be the theologcally correct way to approach a fellow belever…
@Jared
I think you’re right about how Mark should confront Bell, under ideal circumstances that is. But let’s think practically (and this is more of a question than a statement). Is it necessary for Mark to confront Bell personally for men in their position as leaders in the church who have very public ministries? I mean, both Driscoll and Bell have made their ideas, opinions and theology public by publishing books and speaking publicly. Are they not making themselves open to criticism? They are leaders who will be judged by a higher standard. If it’s not convenient for them to meet personally given their schedules (an assumption), are they barred from speaking out against one another’s theology? Isn’t the propagation of the Truth and the protection of the church and sound doctrine a superior directive? I still hold to Mathew 18. However, I would encourage you to consider that Paul himself often indirectly rebuked heretics by name in his letters to the churches. Was this gossip? No. So, why would he do this? Was he wrong to do this?
If I remember right the verse is “if your brother sins against you”. The triad’s statements are very public so I believe a public statement is warranted even required. If the Church is to learn from error a private rebuke does no good. Paul stood up in front of the assembly to rebuke Peter, there is no record of a private meeting. Peter’s behavior was public for all to see so the rebuke had to be public to keep others from the same mistake.
First, to confront one’s brother, one must be a brother….HERETIC…..there is nothing wrong with the “doctrine” of LTA (computer talk) LEAVE THEM ALONE 1 Timothy 4:1&2 ; 6:21
Peter,
If you haven’t found it already, you can find a podcast of Mark’s talk here:
http://www.sebts.edu/Convergent/GeneralInfo/
well, all i hear going on here is a bunch of people stating that certain people are corrupting the Gospel’s but know one has given an example of a statement made or believed by these individuals. bring some proof and don’t just jump on the band wagon..”…Love is the greatest of these……do all things in love….God can use all things for the glory….” do i need to go on? When will the jealousy and bashing stop? It’s no wonder that people turn to beliefs like Hindu or buddism or islam because all they see and here is believers rippingg into each other. I was always taught (1 cor 5:12) to confront privately with truth then if they don’t change confront with another believer then if they don’t take them before the church. Am i wrong on this? I am really tired of the bashing……I read somewhere
that love wins.
Troy
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