Rob began that message by saying, “My goal is to serve you by giving you as much possible background and insight I can. My goal is that these passages we look at–that I’m assuming some of you have heard before–you will see how the original audience would have understood what Jesus was saying. And I’m hoping that some of you become Christians today. Because you say, this is so brilliant, this guy, I want more.”

And then after saying, “I’m hoping that some of you become Christians today,” he never said another word about how, according to the Scriptures, one actually becomes a Christian.

And Mars Hill Bible Church usually includes the audio all the way up to dismissal, and this one was no exception with Rob ending, “If you’re giving an offering, there are joy boxes at the back. Peace be with you.” And Rob has explained before, that’s when the people leave.

In the last three minutes leading up to that he said, “History is filled with brilliant people who thought of all sorts of imaginative, creative ways to face down injustice, cruelty, and oppression, and say, ‘There’s another way.’”

He then quoted “Nonviolence: 25 Lessons from the History of a Dangerous Idea” by Mark Kurlansky, which he called a “mainstream historical overview of non-violence.” Quoting the end of one of the chapters mid-way through: “If someone were to come along who would not compromise–a rebel who insisted on taking the only moral path, rejecting violence in all its forms. Such a person would seem so menacing that he would be killed. And after his death he would be canonized or deified, because a saint is less dangerous than a rebel. This has happened numerous times, but the first prominent example was a Jew named Jesus.”

Rob explained “canonized or deified” to mean “if you hyper-spiritualize, the danger would be if somebody actually did it. The danger would be that this person’s message would get hyper-spiritualized. It would become about some other world, and people would lose the fact that his message was about this world, here, today. Jesus was talking to real people in real situations under real oppression facing real evil, and saying, ‘There’s a third way.’”

Rob continued, “Here’s a question that haunts me, and it should drive us. Because you’re like me, we face all sorts of situations every day. The question a Christian ought to ask all the time when given the standard, totally lame, uncreative solutions the world gives us options that simply to ask in every such– ‘Is there a third way here?’”

And then he prayed, “God, we want to be people of the third way. We want to take Jesus’ message of non-violence, and we want to be bold, imaginative, creative, and we want to change the world. Help us to follow this Jesus and take his message as far as we have to.” And then they were dismissed.

Gary, your entire argument this whole time has been Rob says part of his message (justice) in some places (public sermons, writing, etc.) and the rest of his message (the atonement part of the Gospel) in other places. (Actually, as I went back and re-read the conversation you were saying Rob has preached the Gospel of atonement in public, and Derek and I were pointing out that has not happened in more than a year. Thus, our original question is, why so infrequent?)

Some of the things Mr. Bell says in public are not a different part of the message so much as they are a direct contradiction to the Gospel message and the teachings found in the Scriptures.

God is not about “rejecting violence in all its forms.” In this sermon he said Jesus is. The Gospel did not “become about some other world.” In this sermon he said it did.

It is possible to look at “a hundred quotes from a book,” and listen to dozens of sermons to get a pretty thorough idea of what a man’s thinking is. Here Rob made it pretty clear and direct. He told us, this is the question that haunts him and drives him: “Is there a third way here to respond to injustice, cruelty and oppression?”

I don’t think it’s being judgmental, pretentious, arrogant, disingenuous or pigheaded to say that the essentials of the Gospel include more than “injustice, cruelty, and oppression” and “this world, here, today.” Yes, it’s about justice. And that very well may be “an area of the Gospel message that Churches, preachers, and people are ignoring.” But should we then neglect the rest of the Gospel because justice has been neglected?

The Gospel is also about righteousness, and sin, and offense to God and his wrath.

You wrote, “What bothers me is that you guys seem to be saying that you can only answer the salvation question from one direction, and that all other directions that people come to Jesus are invalid.” There is one way to God, and that is through Jesus. Yes, everyone has a different story of how they came to Christ, but in the end, they all came to Christ by trusting in the same sacrifice to pay for their sins.

In this message, Rob never explained how to become a Christian and then jumped to “the question a Christian ought to ask.” He seems to be implying a Christian is someone who asks, “Is there a third way here?” or someone who is “of the third way.” Asking that question or doing those things are not what make you a Christian.

I hope there is a faithful remnant of people at Mars Hill Bible Church who do understand the Gospel and can explain to people there how they could have actually become Christians that day as Rob said. If “No one is really asking the question, like was asked in the book of Acts, ‘what must I do to be saved?’” that might be because no one is talking about salvation. People tend to ask about what you’re talking about.

Tim
10,850 days

You hear the sermons, but you don’t hear the music, the worship, the invitations, the conversations.

No one is really asking the question, like was asked in the book of Acts, “what must I do to be saved”. They are asking the question, “what does being saved look like, and why should I care”. Rob, and Mars Hill are opening that door for people by putting on display in their community, and in their preaching, what it looks like to be a follower of Jesus and why you should desire to be one too.

What bothers me is that you guys seem to be saying that you can only answer the salvation question from one direction, and that all other directions that people come to Jesus are invalid. I came to Jesus because I read Cosmos by Carl Sagan, and it made no sense with how I percieved reality at all.

Have you even read their statement of faith?
Here is what it says concerning Jesus and salvation:

“Jesus came to preach good news to the poor, to bind up the broken hearted and set captives free. He lived a perfect life proclaiming the arrival of the Kingdom. He was rejected by many, crucified, buried, and rose again. His death and resurrection bring hope to all creation. Through Jesus we have been forgiven and God is reconciling us to himself, each other, ourselves, and creation. Jesus is the only mediator between God and humans. For all who accept his sacrifice he gives the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth through a communal life of worship and a missional expression of our faith. The church is called to put the resurrected Christ who lives in and through us on display to a broken and hurting world.”

You wanna know who wrote that, who preached it…Rob.
I don’t know about you, but that screams substitutionary atonement to me.

I think you’re beating a dead horse. It’s not that we aren’t hearing, it’s that you aren’t. We love that Rob believes the Gospel (Jesus dying as a substitute). We are simply wondering how come, in a year of preaching, he has never articulated it. He has focused on one aspect of Jesus, His life. But hasn’t once focused on the essential part of the Gospel: His death and resurrection.

Has Rob mentioned it? Yes. Has Rob wrote about it? Yes. But it isn’t central to Rob’s teaching; it is central to the Bible’s teaching. It doesn’t matter if what Rob teaches is correct or not if he isn’t preaching Christ crucified and resurrected.

The Gospel, being Jesus’ substitutionary atonement, is left out in favor of something essentially true, but not essential Truth.

You said:
“It’s your description of that substitution that bothers me: “the people he draws to Christ here a message about how Christ lived, and what Christ loved, and what Christ sought to change in the world.”

As far as I can tell from listening to dozens of Rob’s sermons, your statement is accurate. Rob talks a lot, if not always, about how Christ lived.

The problem is, this is NOT the Gospel. The Gospel is about so much more than just this world. At best, this is a very incomplete telling of the Gospel, and at worst, false teaching.”

I NEVER said that was the gospel…NEVER, NOT ONE TIME DID I SAY THAT!!! You are doing to me exactly what you are doing to guys like Rob. You are taking the things that we do say as authoritative to our whole understanding of scripture and the Gospel. And it is just simply not the truth. Neither of us are saying that the things we are saying represent the totality of the Gospel message. What we are saying is that this is an area of the Gospel message that Churches, preachers, and people are ignoring.

I suspect one of the reasons that people are ignoring it is because they fear guys who would beat up on them in public forums for not adding another 42 points to the discussion.

I mean, how can you say in one sentence “he has drawn thousands to a saving faith in Jesus Christ as the only substitution for sin and the only hope for the world.

THAT is the Gospel, and if what you say is indeed true, I praise the Lord, and I’m sure Derek does, too”

and then in the next paragraph totally ignore what you just said and go back to the old argument “well we have read him and heard him speak and he is not preaching the “whole” gospel”?

It seems disingenuous and pigheaded. Like I said, its like you don’t want to hear.